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Fix for DVD Studio Pro 4.1 still menu bugs ( maybe...! )
Tue, 2007-01-16 08:24 — ianshepherd
First you will need to build your project to a folder on hard disk.
If your project uses only still menus, you can skip the next stage. Otherwise you will need to identify which menus in your project are motion and which are static using DVDAE, before making the necessary changes in TFDVDEdit 1.0. So download the demo of DVDAE, if you don't already have it, run the program and select your project's build folder. Open the Preview Window at the top of the Right Pane. In the Left Pane, unfold the "twirly" arrows for Video Title Sets > VTSM 1 Menus > English ( or whatever your menu language is ). All the project menus will be visible in PGCs which have twirlies next to them. ( They will all be in VTSM 1 unless you have both 4:3 and 16:9 menus, in which case the 4:3 ones will be in VTSM 1, the 16:9 ones will be in VTSM 2.) PGCs without twirlies are "dummies", and can be ignored. Click on each PGC and use the Preview to find your still menus. For each one, make a note of the VOB ID as listed in the Program Map directly below the Preview Window.
Open the project in TFDVDEdit v1.0.
You need to double-click on VTS_01_0.VOB - this is the file from the build folder which contains the VTSM 1 menus. In the window that opens, each non-dummy menu will have a blue arrow next to it. Select the GOP icon immediately below each one of these and change the fields as shown in the image below, for all your still menus. ( You'll need to unfold the "Packet type Extension" twirlies to see these. ) If all the menus in your project are static, you need to do this for every VOB ID - ie, every blue arrow. If you have a mixture, only change the details for the VOB IDs you noted in the previous stage.
If you have both 4:3 and 16:9 menus, you will need to do this for any menus in VTSM 2, as well, so you'll need to open up the VTS_02_0.VOB file in TFDVDEdit's main window to see these.
Save & Test
Hi All,
Edit: Update 4.1.2 seems to fix this bug - at last ! So, this thread is now officially obselete.
I have what may be a fix for two bugs with still menus in DVDSP 4.1 - namely:
- Where the menu only displays one field on some players and appears blocky as a result
- Static menus are blank when viewed in the Apple Player on a Panther system
It's not quick, it's not easy and you need a copy of TFDVDEdit v1.0 - but it works, for me at least. I'd appreciate feedback from anyone who's interested and tries it ! I'm happy to email the old version to anyone who's interested.
Edit: I have attached two tiny test projects - one which shows the bug, and one with the fix applied. Please could people try burning these to disc and checking them out ?
The solution in my tests seems to be to change the MPEG stream headers to indicate a progressive sequence and encode, which is how they are set by DVDSP 3 but not 4.1, for some reason. Unfortunately these parameters aren't available to edit in the current version of DVDAE though, hence the need for TFDVDEdit v1.
So, here is the procedure - I've gone into lots of detail for anyone who is new to the program. Please post any queries here.
Finally, take care - this fix has only had minimal testing. You use it entirely at your own risk !
So, as I said - not quick, not easy. But it seems to work. Good luck ! Please let me know if you need more info, and how you get on.
Edit: After testing by several users, it seems that setting the Progressive Sequence flag fixes the issue with the Apple Player under Panther ( still menus display blank ), whereas the Progressive Frame flag solves the "single field" issue. So it seems best to use both.
It is important to make it clear that changing these flags causes several theoretical spec violations - for example, as Bigotti5 notes in the thread, in theory if Progressive Frame is set, then chroma_420_type should also be set. However when we tried this, it caused problems in all our players. By contrast, the original files with the bug are fully compliant with the spec, but are showing issues in players !
So, we currently have a "hack" which seems to work "in the real world", despite some anomalies. if you intend to use this fix on "live" projects, you do so entirely at you own risk, and MUST make sure you test in a wide range of players first.
Cheers,
Ian
PS. If you get an error when trying to save, quit TFDVDEdit, select the project's build folder, do an Apple-i to get the info window up, click the unlock icon ( padlock ) and set all permissions to read/write. Then click the "Apply to all" button.
PPS. Sorry for the huge image size !
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| still_menu_fix.jpg | 237.88 KB |
| test_me.zip | 378.7 KB |
Test project
Hi Ian,
I burned your projects, but could not see the bug at all, neither on Pioneer 7200, or Pioneer DV-490 stand alone players, nor on the Macs.
Hi jguffee,Thanks for the
Hi jguffee,
Thanks for the feedback, glad it works for you. How many players did you test in ?
To answer your questions, it seems that setting the Progressive Sequence flag fixes the issue with the Apple Player under Panther ( still menus display blank ), whereas the Progressive Frame flag solves the "single field" issue. So I would use both, personally.
I should make it clear that changing these flags causes several theoretical spec violations - for example, as Bigotti5 noted, in theory if Progressive Frame is set, then chroma_420_type should also be set. However when we tried this, it caused problems in all our players. By contrast, the original files with the bug are compliant with the spec, but are showing issues in players !
So, we currently have a "hack" which seems to work "in the real world", despite some anomalies. if you intend to use this fix on "live" projects, please make sure you test in a wide range of players first.
Cheers,
Ian
PS. Apple received several bug reports on this issue over 3 months ago - they have it as a "known issue" but we don't know when a fix will be available.
Tried the Workaround
Ian:
I tried the workaround for the DVD SP 4.1.1 still menu bug. It worked for us. After the fix, the text on the still menus looked better. I'm just wondering, is it the Progressive Sequence or the Progressive Frame setting that actually fixes the menu bug? Thank you for your efforts to look into this bug. We are planning to submit a bug report to Apple.
jguffee
Hi jguffe, I've sent you
Hi jguffe,
I've sent you v1.0.
Ian
I'd like to try the fix with v1_0
Ian:
I tried your test projects and found that I couldn't notice a lot of difference with the way the text looked on the menu, at least on the players that I tried. However, I would like to experiment with making the change on some menus we have noticed that have the problem with the still menus and DVD SP 4.1. Could you e-mail me v1.0?
Thanks,
jguffee
Test project added for download
Another one of my requests for assistance ! Please could anyone with a free moment download the attachment to the first post and try it in some players ? I'm especially interested to know if it makes things _worse_ ever...
Ian
Yes, but you can have a
Yes, but you can have a 1-frame GOP - this is the usual format for DVDSP menus. Also Bitvice doesn't accept images as input, so the workflow is quite a bit messier. But, it's good to have an alternative, thanks for letting us know. People can choose whichever solution they prefer.
Ian
you need a complete GOP structure for still image
you only need to modify the bitvice progressive box
This is it
Interesting ! I can't
Interesting ! I can't reproduce this though, because every time I try to encode a single-frame file with BitVice it either crashes or just sits there saying [Deciding Bitrate].
Or, do you mean you are encoding as a longer clip ? Because the existing workaround is to use static motion menus - 30 seconds, say - you then won't see the issue except on the final ( loop ) frame or when you press a button.
Ian
Update - The plot thickens...
I have reverted the instructions to their original form, leaving the Chroma_420 flag as-is, because both myself and another tester have found that changing it causes the menu to display incorrectly in the Apple DVD player under Tiger, and crash some players.
In addition, changing the Progressive Sequence flag on it's own solves the pixelation problem in my players, but not the "menu won't show in Apple Player under Panther" issue...
All of which comfirms that still menus in 4.1 are very messed-up.
Please keep the comments coming !
Ian
By using Bitvice Progressive image
I have this problem, one weeks ago and i found finally a solution with Bitvice v1.5 with progressive image tag
sincerly
Thanks, I've updated the
Thanks, I've updated the image to reflect your recommendation. I think there's no harm in still change the Progressive Sequence flag though, since i was always set by DVDSP 3 and seemed to work OK.
Ian
no need to change "Top field
no need to change "Top field first" flag
Ouch ! OK, I never tried
Ouch ! OK, I never tried that :-)
If patching Progressive frame, do you think we need to change the "Top field first" flag, or is it irrelevant for a progressive frame ?
Ian
No - if the flag would be wrong
So I see your point, maybe we should set the Alternate Scanning flag to zero, too...
No - if the flag would be wrong only you will get a fully distorted picture on every player
Here you can see an example with correct flag and here if the flag is wrong
If you patch progressiv_frame you have also to patch chroma_420_type
ISO/IEC 13818-2
If chroma_format is 4:2:0, the value of chroma_420_type shall be the same as progressive_frame
Hi bigotti5,Thanks for the
Hi bigotti5,
Thanks for the link ! That's the issue then, right there. Do you know what the intended purpose of "Progressive Sequence" is ?
> btw does DVDSP 4.1 really encode stills with alternate scan?
To be honest, I don't know. The whole thing seems messed up ! According to ReStream, these are the values:
DVDSP 3 - Frametype Progressive, Zig-zag scanning
DVDSP 4.1 - Frametype Interlaced, ( Top first ) Alternate scanning
I haven't tried setting the values incorrectly in the DVDSP 3 project to see if the same bug emerges. Since both these test project were muxed on the same system with the same version of Compressor instalIed, presumably this is a muxing/flagging issue, not an encoding one.
I'm not sure we can trust any of those values, any more. So I see your point, maybe we should set the Alternate Scanning flag to zero, too...
Ian
dvdforum
"progressive sequence" has no impact
"progressive frame" is important
read the note at Dvdforum
http://www.dvdforum.org/booksub/fvn005.htm
(3) ID No. : 105029
Description of playback problem of Disc
Progressive_frame of still picture is 0.
Phenomena of playback problems
Still picture with progressive frame causes field still display.
Picture degrading might occur.
Countermeasures to be taken with disc
Progressive_frame of still picture shall be set to 1 in the event still picture is frame displayed or frame still display is set at the end of motion picture.
btw does DVDSP 4.1 really encode stills with alternate scan?
Hi Alex, you may have struck
Hi Alex,
You may have struck it lucky with CCE - I tried encoding with a couple of different encoders and had the same problem, iirc. I've tested this on the same machine, ie. using the same version of Compressor, and it still happens. This suggests to me ( but doesn't prove ! ) that it's a build/mux issue, rather than an encode one.
Ian
Hi Danny, Yes, I've been
Hi Danny,
Yes, I've been chatting to Uli too ! I'll email v1 to you. Anyone else who wants to try this and doesn't have a copy please let me know. And, please keep discussions about it here for the moment until we've done some more testing and know that it works on a variety of players.
Ian
Fix for DVD SP 4.1 menu bugs
Good stuff guys, and great detective work. For some reason we have been unaffected by this bug, but this might be due to the exclusive use of Cinema Craft SP encoder for everything we do. I said that Compressor can't be trusted not only for serious work, but for any MPEG2-related work, after the dust have settled, on Compressor announcement . I'll be back in the office on Jan 22nd, and will check our latest projects to report further.
great debugging....
hallo ian,
I guess that debugging took some time. I remember your posting on the apple-website.
Isn´t it funny? Uli, me and a few other german editer had a discussion about another progressive-problem a few days ago! It was about the handling of progressive coded MPEGs.
we all found that there ist somthing strage going on with it.
finally Uli made a big test with some encoders and checked them with restream.
so his conclusion was:
compressor2(.3) is not setting a proper progressive-flag and dvdsp is not useing this material as progressive ( of course not ), and MPEG Frame from the append-suite is not working under 10.4, so you have to take restream to fix it.
another point seems to be, that most encoders seems to have problems with the flag (not all of them), but they all handle it different, PC AND mac-based.
------
I would like to test your solution, so could you give me a DL-link for version 1! hahaaa, back to the roots ;)
thx
danny
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