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Progressive scans encoding PAL/NTSC
Tue, 2007-06-19 06:34 — Stevey K
I have posted this over at Creative Cow but thought some of the bright folk here would be able to steer me right.
I am trying to establish a possible workflow...
If we were to receive High Def masters - which I believe from a response I had from Alex Asp (way back) usually come as 1080i HD-D5 tapes at 59.94 fps (or sometimes HD-Cam Hi Def Clones) what would be the best workflow. Some of the steps I am likely to place to a third party outside source so need to know what I need to get back from them to enable me to do the encoding.
So assuming we have this Hi Def master we get our third party to convert from 1080i to 1080p and then downconvert to 625PAL (presumably at this point it is Progressive). They would need a Terranex/Alchemist to do a decent job according to Alex (who is the man who knows...). So what would they then hand back to me? Some kind of Quicktime file that is Progressive? It is likely we would use Cinemacraft on a PC (the best solution I believe) to "feed" this file to so we would need a file that we could just "point" at CCE-SP and let it go (I suspect it isn't quite as straightforward as that as I'm sure we'd have to change certain things in CCE-SP to achieve a progressive scan PAL encode)
I assume a Progressive scan PAL encode is possible (would it be at 25 fps?)
Also need to know the possible steps if they wanted it as NTSC. I understand Progressive on NTSC is 24fps
Apologies for the long post but hoping someone can point me in the right direction...
Basically we are going to see a potential suppliuer of such services and I don't want to appear acomplete numbskull and need to understand what we ight need from them to enable us to get the best service etc....
Thanks
Steve
Progressive scans encoding PAL/NTSC
Hi Steve,
IMHO, there is no Alchemist/Teranex needed here, if realtime is not an issue. Such devices shine when you have to de-interlace or 'invent' frames, which is true for conversions of footage originated on video only.
- You'll just need a proper inverse telecine which is fast and simple in software (unless there are any edits breaking the sequence).
- Downscaling is done in very good quality by software like FCP or AEFX, and it doesn't take much time on modern hardware (it's adaptive de-interlacing and vector-based changes of framerate where software is awfully slow – not needed here).
- Progressive encodes for SD DVD has advantages even in PAL (if flagged properly). Otherwise the player will try to de-interlace if connected to a component or HDMI output and resolution will suffer. Given the dreaded "format war" regarding next-gen DVD and the fact that European framerates are not (yet?) supported on most of these devices more and more users get themselves a good upscaling DVD player. Some of them do an impressive job for the money, like most of the better models from Denon or my personal Panasonic S-52 (out of production, unfortunately, it was very good value for the money). Watching a well-produced SD DVD (like the TV-series "Lost") on such a device is quite a pleasure on any good HD display.
Hope this helps,
Uli
You have a pretty good grasp already...
Hi Steve,
Sounds like you have a decent grasp of it already ! Your comments about the post houses are well taken :-)
Here are some ( hopefully useful ) comments:
we have one customer who keeps asking us whether we can do Progressive Scan Encodes PAL (despite the fact that I don't really see much advantage in doing this)
Scaling operations will typically give better results on progressive footage unless the material has very little movement. Also as you know the PAL has better resolution. Some DVD players have true progressive ouput - with a progressive monitor, this will look better than the monitor de-interlacing a player's interlaced output. Ie:
is better than
The masters they provide are from an original film source which has had a 1080i master produced at 59.4fps. They normally come on D5 or possibly HD cam. My understanding this is then converted to 1080p at 23.98p. So we now have progressive...
Yes, and assuming the original capture and inverse telecine has been done properly, it will be almost identical to the original progressive source - so far so good. ( Teranex or similar are used to do this. )
This is then downconverted to SD PAL - presumably still progressive. A file (8-Bit/10 Bit uncompreseed???) or a DigiBeta master is then created.
Yes - and again, a Teranex or Alchemist will be used, probably in the same "pass". At this stage, the 24 fps file is effectively just re-flagged as 25 fps for PAL. This causes the speed increase, but has the advantage that no frame interpolation is needed, which gives a better quality result. You could potentially save some money here - ask for an HD file from Stage 2 and do the scaling yourself in Final Cut - it will look pretty good, but will take a lot of processor time.
Either the Digi is then captured to create a file to "feed" to CCE-SP or the file supplied by the Post house is fed to CCE-SP...
Yes, I would rcommend the latter since the tape isn't much use at this stage - except as a safety copy.
Somewhere in this scenario an Alchemist will be needed (perhaps between step 1 and 2 and Step 2 and 3)
Exactly - and, probably in the same pass, as I say. Not 100% sure of that, though.
Any use ?
Ian
We are getting confused...
Hi Ian
No It is not an SD Source uprezzed...
The reason I was talking about a "workflow" is that - as you probably know - many post facilities may offer these facilities but not really know fully what they offer or could offer and also there is nothing worse than asking someone for a service and not knowing what you yourself are talking about... (then they can't blind you with science either). Hence my questions. At present we get SD masters on DigiBeta/Beta SP etc and we get our facilities house to encode, we make the DVD in DVD-SP, write the DLT and sit back and wait for the cheque.
However... we are have one customer who keeps asking us whether we can do Progressive Scan Encodes PAL (despite the fact that I don't really see much advantage in doing this) and/or NTSC progressive (where I can see the relevance). We also do other work for them which isn't Progressive so I can only assume (always dangerous) that they like that work and would like to give us the work where they need Progressive.
So this sort of thibng is kinda new to us - and there seems to be a lot of confusion out there...
So to perhaps clarify.
1. The masters they provide are from an original film source which has had a 1080i master produced at 59.4fps. They normally come on D5 or possibly HD cam.
2. My understanding this is then converted to 1080p at 23.98p. So we now have progressive...
3. This is then downconverted to SD PAL - presumably still progressive. A file (8-Bit/10 Bit uncompreseed???) or a DigiBeta master is then created.
4. Either the Digi is then captured to create a file to "feed" to CCE-SP or the file supplied by the Post house is fed to CCE-SP...
5. Somewhere in this scenario an Alchemist will be needed (perhaps between step 1 and 2 and Step 2 and 3)
What I am trying to is understand the processes involved to more clearly understand what we need to ask for and also if I understand it more I can perhaps explain the advantages/disadvantages of a PAl progressive encode to the client.
As it is only one client that has ever requested this this is why we would need an outside source to do the work...
Hi Steve, Firstly to answer
Hi Steve,
Firstly to answer your original question - if you're having inverse telecine/de-interlacing and scaling done by a Post facility, they should be able to supply it back to you in whatever format you request, including AVI or MOV. That's what I usually do since it saves having to capture from tape before encoding - send them your own drive or they'll sell you one and mark it up :-) In my experience D5 masters are relatively scarce, but it all depends where the master is coming from.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at when you ask about workflow, though. You're saying this was originally an SD source, upscaled to 1080i and restored/remastered/re-graded, and now you have to do an SD DVD release, is that right ? If so, then as Uli said, the best workflow depends on whether or not it was from film, and how it was digitised. The goal is obviously to avoid unnecessary conversions - hopefully an inverse telecine will be possible to reconstruct the original progressive frames. The tapes should be labelled, but even if not the post house may well be able to figure this out by looking at the material.
They will do the de-interlace/inverse telecine and then scale in one pass, and supply you with uncompressed files to encode from. Since PAL has slightly better resolution, there is a small benefit to having a separate 576p25 conversion ( plus you avoid the risk of cheap players doinf a bad conversion themselves ), with the slightly speeded up audio as Uli says. I don't use CCE myself but it excels with progressive footage, I believe, so encoding these should then be straightforward.
Does that answer your question ?
Ian
I kind of knew that...
Hi Ian
I kind of knew that would be the case with my "silly" question about Restream - if it was that easy we'd all be doing it....
I understand what you are saying with respect to having the masters arrive as Progressive to start with (and we have said to the client that it would make more sense) but this is why I have asked the question about workflow (re-read my initial question...).
This is for SD DVD at the moment (it's one of those ReMastered in High Definition - bending the truth....). The client has a bit of bee in their bonnet about PAL progressive which as far as my research is telling me is not really worth it. It seems to me that where i't to an advantage is in NTSC and we have recommnded that they instead do their releases in NTSC Progressive....
Steve
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that
Hi Steve,
An interlaced capture needs to be de-interlaced to become progressive. Just changing the flag will cause problems on playback - that's what caused the infamous DVDSP static menu bug.
If it's being shot on film, then as Uli says the best solution is to stick with progressive throughout. Whoever is doing the telecine - transfering to video, either by taping a projection rather than scanning the negs - should ask your customer how they want it, and they should ask for it progressive. Then you can avoid the de-interlacing stage, which costs money and reduces quality ( a bit. ) If it hasn't already been transferred, I recommend you ask the question and get involved, otherwise it might get captured as interlaced by default, which will just slow things down and add to the cost unnecessarily.
Bear in mind that PAL frame-rates are unsupported on HD DVD players at this stage, so the HD DVD version can just be NTSC all the way.
Ian
Progressive scans encoding PAL/NTSC
Hi Uli
As far as I know it is film based which is being mastered to High Definition. I know about PAL being 25fps (I am UK based...).
You mention Restream for resetting the flags. This begs a question. Is it then possible to take an encode that is not progressive (PAL 576i@25fps) and use Restream to switch it to Progressive - I suspect not...
Steve
Progressive scans encoding PAL/NTSC
Hi Steve,
my first question is: does your footage originate on film or video, i. e. is it progressive from the start and has just pulldown added? In that case your best option is to do an inverse telecine process to get 24 fps (which will be progressive) and scale that down to PAL plus NTSC as needed.
The PAL version should be changed in running speed from 24 to 25 fps, so you don't need to add any frames. Film has been shown on TV like this in Europe for decades.
I'll have to check my own past articles to see if CCE is flagging progressive correctly, but it will encode progressive footage very well. Correcting flags is easy with ReStream (freeware).
Regards,
Uli
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