Rivergate Software Inc. - makers of DVDAfterEdit

Posted Jul 06,2005 8:01 PM videoarts

Hi Trai:
I recently output to DLTs a DVD-9 project originally authored in Sonic Creator and "finished" in 'Edit (UOP'd first and last PGC Nav Packs, self-referred PGC numbers for Next/Prev/GoUp, turned on CSS flag for project) and apparently the replicator cannot read the DLTs I sent. I finished and output to tape from 3.0b31. Do the following errors make sense? I thought the replicator provided the key for CSS and encrypted for copy protection, all we do is flag in the outputting to DLT process?

This was the message from the producer:
>I finally got a report back from the replicator, and the news isn't
> good: They cannot read the DLTs. Here are the errors that the QA report
> returned:
>
> * An encryption key was provided for an unencrypted VTS (this showed up
> for VTS 1, 2 & 3).
> * Protection state of VOB files from the same VTS disagree.

Any thoughts on what this might mean? Would it help if I sent a specific project file for you to look at?
Thanks
Simon

Posted Jul 06,2005 8:43 PM videoarts

Hi again:
I ran the project out to a tape image so as to generate a log file again, hope this helps shed some light.
Thanks
Simon

Project Name: Mxxxxx
Layer Break: VTS 1 VOB ID 2 Cell ID 1
Layers: 2
Layer 0 Sectors: 1910368
Layer 1 Sectors: 1842896
Disc Diameter: 12 cm
Disc Side: Side A
Number of Sides: One
Output Format: DDP 2.0, CSS
Copy Generation Management: No Copying Allowed
Macrovision: None
ISO: File Names in Legal Full ISO
Joliet: None
UDF: File Names in Legal Full UDF
Regions: 1 7
Disc Name: Mxxxxx
Tape Label: Mxxxxx_V13TFD_v2
*****Files not used in any filesystem:
*****End of files not used in any filesystem
*****Files not used in UDF filesystem:
*****End of files not used in UDF filesystem
*****Files not used in ISO filesystem:
File .DS_Store
*****End of files not used in ISO filesystem

Begin Read Disc Folder

Begin DDPID
DDP Level: DDP 2.00
Master ID:
Type of disc: DV
Number of disc sides: 1
Side of current surface: 0
Number of disc layers: 2
Layer of current surface: 0
Direction of translation: O (OTP)
Replica disc size: B (12 cm)
Security system status: 3 (CSS)
Security system mode: 0
User-defined text:
VVVM
Data stream type: D2 (Lead-in Control Information)
Data stream length: 00000016
Data stream start: 00193024
DVD mode: DV
Source storage mode: 1 (2054 bytes)
Source materials scrambled: 0
Data stream identifier: CONTROL.DAT
VVVM
Data stream type: D0 (DVD Image)
Data stream length: 01910371
Data stream start: 00196608
DVD mode: DV
Source storage mode: 1 (2054 bytes)
Source materials scrambled: 0
Data stream identifier: MAIN.DAT

Begin CONTROL.DAT
Book Type 0: DVD-ROM
Part Version 1: Version 1.0x
Disc Size 0: 12 cm
Max Transfer Rate 2: 10.08 Mbps
Number of Layers 1: Dual
Track Path 1: Opposite
Layer Type 1: Read-only
Linear Density 1: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density 0: 0.74 um/track
Start Sector: 0x30000
End Sector: 0xfbf86f
End Sector Layer 0: 0x202662
Burst Cutting Area 0: does not exist
CPS_TY 01 (CSS)
Region Mask BE

Begin MAIN.DAT
Volume Identifier: Mxxxxx
Volume Set Identifier: 2005 7/6 17:12:18 Mxxxxx

UDF Bridge, Partition Start 263 Partition Length 3753000
Dir Mxxxxx_V13TFD_v2 Extent: 266 Length: 240 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
Dir VIDEO_TS Extent: 272 Length: 1132 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VIDEO_TS.IFO Extent: 308 Length: 18432 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VIDEO_TS.VOB Extent: 317 Length: 364711936 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VIDEO_TS.BUP Extent: 178399 Length: 18432 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_01_0.IFO Extent: 178408 Length: 57344 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_01_0.VOB Extent: 178436 Length: 107888640 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_01_1.VOB Extent: 231116 Length: 1073709056 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_2.VOB Extent: 755388 Length: 1073709056 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_3.VOB Extent: 1279660 Length: 1073709056 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_4.VOB Extent: 1803932 Length: 217987072 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
Layer 0 has 1910371 (0x1d2663) sectors, break is at: VTS 1 VOB ID 2 Cell ID 1
File VTS_01_4.VOB Extent: 1910371 Length: 855721984 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_5.VOB Extent: 2328204 Length: 1073709056 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_6.VOB Extent: 2852476 Length: 586401792 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_0.BUP Extent: 3138805 Length: 57344 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_02_0.IFO Extent: 3138833 Length: 28672 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_02_0.VOB Extent: 3138847 Length: 8192 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_02_1.VOB Extent: 3138851 Length: 1073709056 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_02_2.VOB Extent: 3663123 Length: 95188992 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_02_0.BUP Extent: 3709602 Length: 28672 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_03_0.IFO Extent: 3709616 Length: 18432 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_03_0.VOB Extent: 3709625 Length: 8192 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_03_1.VOB Extent: 3709629 Length: 89333760 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_03_0.BUP Extent: 3753249 Length: 18432 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
Dir AUDIO_TS Extent: 270 Length: 40 Permissions: 14a5 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
Dir MUV13Tv2_tapeimg Extent: 268 Length: 40 Permissions: 14a5
File .DS_Store Extent: 3753258 Length: 6148 Permissions: 1084
Layer 1 has 1842893 (0x1c1ecd) sectors

Begin Read Disc Folder

Begin DDPID
DDP Level: DDP 2.00
Master ID:
Type of disc: DV
Number of disc sides: 1
Side of current surface: 0
Number of disc layers: 2
Layer of current surface: 1
Direction of translation: O (OTP)
Replica disc size: B (12 cm)
Security system status: 3 (CSS)
Security system mode: 0
User-defined text:
VVVM
Data stream type: D0 (DVD Image)
Data stream length: 01842893
Data stream start: 02106978
DVD mode: DV
Source storage mode: 1 (2054 bytes)
Source materials scrambled: 0
Data stream identifier: MAIN.DAT

Posted Jul 06,2005 9:23 PM videoarts

Hi once again, with yet more info. I received a fax forwarded from the replicator with the Eclipse failure report. I'll try to reproduce it here as faithfully as possible since it's a fax and came through blurry. The formatting won't match the columns but you should be able to make sense of all the main data. The replicator said the DLTs were rejected, cannot load!
Regards
Simon

Mode Location Length Error Description Additional Info
[i] CSS
[i] DDP level 2.00
[i] DVD
[i] Dual-Layer (Opposite track path) Layer 0
[i] ISO9660 Data
[i] Number of Audio Title Sets 0
[f] Number of Video Title Sets 3
[a] Protection state of VOB files from the same VTS disagree VTS 1
[i] SSCRST 3 Src not encrypted, igt encrypted.
[i] UDE data
[w] DVD 0h 1 An encryption key was provided for an unencrypted VTS VTS 1
[w] DVD 0h 1 An encryption key was provided for an unencrypted VTS VTS 2
[e] Protection state of VOB files from the same VTS disagree VTS 2
[w] DVD 0h 1 An encryption key was provided for an unencrypted VTS VTS 3
[e] Protection state of VOB files from the same VTS disagree VTS 3
[i] Region 1 United States & its territories...
[i] Region 7 Reserved
[w] DVD 5B901h-686C8h 52,680 VOB flag in sector header is invalid \VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.VOB.1

Posted Jul 06,2005 11:30 PM larryapple

Hi,

It has recently come to our attention that Eclipse will not pass a DVD with only the VTS VOBs encrypted, and not the VTSM VOB. We can find nothing in the spec to support this, but since Eclipse is so widely used we have no choice but to rescind that option in our Format/Copy Dialog in our next release. In the meantime, please turn on "Encrypt VTS Menus" to avoid that error.

I also noticed that you had an empty directory : MUV13Tv2_tapeimg" and a .DS_Store that you probably didn't want, though they don't hurt anything. You can eliminate the .DS_Store by unchecking "Include Macintosh ROM Data" in the dialog.

Regards,

Larry

Posted Jul 07,2005 1:48 PM videoarts

Thanks, Larry, for your prompt response. I'll give both those suggestions a try and generate new DLTs. Will let you know how it goes.
Regards
Simon

Posted Jul 07,2005 3:58 PM videoarts

Hi Larry:
Before I go ahead with your suggestion re: encrypting VTS Menu, this is something we've never had to do before when generating CSS flagged DLTs from Sonic DVD Creator (or for that matter from 'Edit), so am wondering what's different so that this has now become an issue? Is it just with certain versions of Eclipse, and is there a list of those versions available? Also wondering if VTS Menu encryption and removal of the Macintosh ROM data is something that an operator can enable at the replicator end or does it indeed require making a new pair of DLTs?
We've sent out many projects for replication with CSS enabled only on VTS VOBs, all of them successful up until this one.
Thanks
Simon

Posted Jul 07,2005 4:11 PM larryapple

Hi Simon,

I will have to get Eclipse Support involved in answering these questions, since I have only only one version of Eclipse. I don't know if the ROM data makes any difference or might confuse Eclipse, I will run some more tests, and get back to you.

Regards,

Larry

Posted Jul 07,2005 6:00 PM videoarts

Thanks! I appreciate you looking into it.
Simon

Posted Jul 08,2005 2:40 PM larryapple

Hi Simon,

Scott Abbanat at Eclipse Support has been very helpful. I sent him the Eclipse logs from a test project that I made and he was able to confirm that the DDP image was properly formed, but that the Eclipse error checking is too strict and will not allow CSS on a VOB without also requiring it on the Menu VOB for the same VTS number.

Eclipse will be releasing a formal statement of the problem which I will post here. But the upshot is that it will be best for us to remove the option not to encrypt VTS Menus.

There are still the options not to encrypt VMG Menus and/or Jacket Pictures, which pass the Eclipse tests.

Regards,

Larry

Posted Jul 08,2005 5:11 PM videoarts

Hi Larry:
Thanks very much for the follow-up with Eclipse Support and confirming the requirement for VTSM encryption for CSS at this time. I'm going to go ahead with the DLTs and send them to the replicator, we should know by early next week if this works on their system and I will get back to you with that information. I'll look for your posting of Eclipse's statement so I can inform our staff of the issue as well.
Best wishes
Simon

Posted Jul 08,2005 6:46 PM larryapple

Here is Scott's letter:

Hello Larry,

Thank you for bringing the following report "Error when encrypting CSS, but
not on VTSM" to our attention. After reviewing the CSS specifications it
appears that our software is too strict in enforcing the rule "Protection
state of VOB files in the same VTS disagree." We will look into the rule
further and make changes to our application as necessary.

Kind regards,
Scott

Posted Jul 10,2005 4:48 PM okeanos

I'm just not satisfied with this as a complete explanation of the situation.

Sonic's recommendation for a very long time has been to NOT encrypt VMGM or VTSMs and so I've only ever encrypted VTSs. I find it hard to believe this problem ("our software is too strict") hasn't bitten me (and the many others who have followed Sonic's advice) until now. It seems unlikely that an Eclipse system wasn't involved in a least a few of these jobs - if not the majority of them. So, why is this practice a problem now? Did Eclipse release a recent update - perhaps one that not all replicator's have taken - which created this problem in the first place? It seems like it would be good to know the compelte story here before you make a change to 'Edit.

Michael

Posted Jul 10,2005 10:26 PM larryapple

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the info, I passed it along to Scott at Eclipse.

There's an experiment you or anyone with a Sonic App could try: Write out a tape (you can stop it after a couple of minutes) from the Sonic App (Scenarist or Creator?), after choosing not to encrypt the VTSM. Then begin copying it to anywhere with DVDAfterEdidt,. cancel, and then look at our log. It will show the CSS flags for each file. If indeed the flags are off for the VTSM VOBs, then that will prove your assumption. The logs are written to: your name, library, preferences, com.tfdvd.dvdafteredit.logs.

Thanks,

Larry

Posted Jul 11,2005 5:12 PM okeanos

Larry -

Give me a couple of days to report back on this.

I am extremely curious to know if Sonic is obeying it's own parameters. If you've never output a DLT with Sonic, CSS is added to a project on a per-VTS and per-VTSM basis. [Different from how 'Edit works where it's applied on a per-domain basis.] It can also be added to VMGM (though Sonic recommends this NOT be done).

Michael

Posted Jul 14,2005 1:41 PM okeanos

Larry -

Below is what I suspect is the relevant info on the CSS for a DLT made with Sonic. Let me know if you need to see more.

To my eyes it looks like everything in VTS 1 is encrypted - titles and menus. Closer inspection of Sonic's UI reveals that there's no specific dialog for setting CSS on a VTSM - only on a VTS and on VMGM. It had never occured to me before to want to encrypt a VTSM so I guess I hadn't looked for the corresponding dialog. Thus I think it's safe to conclude that when CSS is turned on for a given VTS in Sonic, it's also turned on for the corresponding VTSM.

Michael

Root Directory Extent: 259 Parent Directory: 1
Dir . Extent: 259 Length: 2048 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
Dir .. Extent: 259 Length: 2048 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
Dir AUDIO_TS Extent: 260 Length: 2048 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
Dir VIDEO_TS Extent: 261 Length: 2048 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
Directory AUDIO_TS Extent: 260 Parent Directory: 1
Dir . Extent: 260 Length: 2048 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
Dir .. Extent: 259 Length: 2048 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
Directory VIDEO_TS Extent: 261 Parent Directory: 1
Dir . Extent: 261 Length: 2048 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
Dir .. Extent: 259 Length: 2048 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
File VIDEO_TS.BUP Extent: 40406 Length: 12288 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
File VIDEO_TS.IFO Extent: 297 Length: 12288 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
File VIDEO_TS.VOB Extent: 303 Length: 82098176 CGMS: Content not copyrighted, May be copied freely, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_01_0.BUP Extent: 2194387 Length: 65536 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_01_0.IFO Extent: 40412 Length: 65536 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, No Hardware copy protection
File VTS_01_0.VOB Extent: 40444 Length: 10526720 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_1.VOB Extent: 45584 Length: 1073709056 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_2.VOB Extent: 569856 Length: 1073709056 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_3.VOB Extent: 1094128 Length: 1073709056 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_4.VOB Extent: 1618400 Length: 1073709056 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)
File VTS_01_5.VOB Extent: 2142672 Length: 105879552 CGMS: Content copyrighted, May never be copied, DVD Video Protection System (CSS)

Posted Jul 14,2005 5:00 PM larryapple

Thanks Michael,

This completely agrees with what Scott told me - Eclipse has always flagged a VTS without VTSM CSS encryption set as an error, since a very early version. It is possible to have the replicator change the severity of this error to warning, or even ignore, and go ahead and create DVD with VTS encryption anb no VTSM encryption, but it doesn't seem worth it at this point.

Oh, and by Sonic, do you mean Scenarist or another Sonic App?

Regards,

Larry

Posted Jul 14,2005 6:40 PM okeanos

Fusion/Creator

Posted Jul 15,2005 12:10 AM larryapple

Thanks, Michael.

I asked Joe Rice, and the UI options are the same in Scenarist. So there is no need to run a test - it must be encrypting the VTSM, or Eclipse would have complained.

Larry

Posted Jul 25,2005 8:23 PM videoarts

Hi Larry:
Just to close the loop on my posts, and to let you know the outcome, after I made new DLTs with the VTSMs encrypted and "Include Macintosh ROM data" unchecked, the replicator was able to load the new DLTs, pass Eclipse tests and proceed to glass mastering, and the project has now gone through replication successfully.
Thanks again for your help and input.
Simon

Posted Jul 25,2005 8:28 PM larryapple

Thanks, Simon. We always appreciate knowing the final result.

Larry