Rivergate Software Inc. - makers of DVDAfterEdit

Posted Oct 24,2004 8:23 PM jean.marie

Hi , I'm a real newbie in TFDVDEDIT.

As it's wrote page 38 in TFDVDEDIT MANUAL I'd like to do a DVD in witch angles change without mute.

the concept I'd like to do is to never play the same movie. so I begin to add some markers in my track with tow movies in the same track in DVDSP3

I add button in subtitle area.

But after that I don't know what to do ?

Should I put a link to a script inwitch it's wrote : if VARIABLE = N this for every marker and run different random actions before playing the random movie ??

I really don't know .

you wrote at the end of page 38 "an article on this will be appearing on the TFDVDEDIT support site, soon " I did not found it , if it is on the website could you give me the link, and if not I hope you could help me and my very bad english (I'm french,lol)

thanx

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Posted Oct 25,2004 6:35 AM Uli Plank

Bonjour, Jean-Marie,

your English is quite OK (I'd continue in French, but that would be very impolite in regards to our fellow listers).
I'm afraid that you won't get what you want with multi-angle. From my tests until now I found that you can change the angle, the sound and the subtitle with one button command without interrupting seamless playback. But as soon as you introduce a conditional commmand, the playback won't be seamless any more (is this correct, Trai?).

I think you should have a closer look at seamless branching.

Best regards,

Uli

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Posted Oct 25,2004 5:42 PM Arky

I agree with Uli. BROADLY-speaking, I would favour 'Seamless-Branching' for this. Allow me to explain:

As Trai taught me, anywhere a conditional command is placed DURING a stream, this cell must (in order to remain spec-compliant) be flagged as Non-Seamless. As you are probably aware, a cell that is flagged as 'Non-Seamless' will cause 99% of players to pause and (for want of a better word) 'think'.

Therefore, if you wish to have multiple alternative playback paths through a VOB, but do not wish to suffer pauses in order to achieve this, then you cannot rely upon conditional cell commands to achieve this during playback.

This is one reason why 'Seamless-Branching' (not a true term, see below *) is so useful. S-B can use PGC logic to determine the playback through an interleaved VOB, and because the PGC is a 'pre-determined' entity, it does not require the player to 'think' during playback - the player already KNOWS what playback route is required through the Interleaved Block, even before the video begins to play.

However, this does not prevent you from authoring a disc that plays different story versions according to conditional commands - the only restriction is that you must execute those conditional commands before physical playback of the PGC (story) commences.

In short, Multi-Angle is not the ideal solution to your problem.

S-B is by far the most logical solution, here, but you will need to execute your conditional commands prior to commencing playback of each alternative story PGC.

If you require any assistance to author your project, just ask and one of us will be very happy to help you.

Regards,

John.
('Arky')

* http://www.tfdvdedit.com/members/forum/openthread.cfm?forum=1&ThreadID=1...

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Posted Oct 25,2004 8:43 PM jean.marie

Thanx a lot for all your answereds .

SO if I understand I can not do a "random movie without a mute" ?

I'll see seamless-branching during the next days.

In fact the perfect things would be that: in DVDSP3 I could choose in track(story or scenari I don't know how it's called in english) the differente movie (2in a track in my case)) and not only the chapter.I'd do a lot of different story and a random script to choose the story and after re-multiplexe all that stuff in TFDVDEDIT. And it's done !!!uut not it looks much more difficult.

I think I realy need a assistance to author in this projet for tow reasons : first this is my first TFDVDEDIT PROJET and second I'm not really good with logical and computer code (sounds chinese to me)

so if you can help me it would be a real pleasure.

my email : eclictik@wanadoo.fr and my name is Arthur

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Posted Oct 26,2004 4:48 AM ianshepherd

Hi Arthur,

You can do exactly what you want - in fact Edit's seamless branching feature was designed to work in exactly the right way for you. Just author using stories selected by random as you say, resulting in a non-seamless effect. DVDSP will put each story in it's own PGC. Then you can just select all the PGCs in TFDVDEdit, control-click and select "Interleave PGCs", and 'Edit will do the rest ! Your stories will now play seamlessly - it's that easy...

Ian

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Posted Oct 26,2004 5:55 PM jean.marie

yes It will be easy but I can't switch between 2tracks (in one movie) in stories (in DVDSP3). the purpose is to switch randomly between thoses two tracks (it's not like the exemple TFDVDEDIT give in home page about seamless)I don't want jump a chapter I want change the track seamlessly and randomly.

I'll find the way

but If you have solution or a beginning to show me the way , don't esitate to send me it : eclictik@wanadoo.fr ;-)

thanx

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Posted Oct 27,2004 7:29 AM ianshepherd

Hi Arthur,

If you want to seamlessly switch at ANY point, in a genuinely random way, I think the answer is probably that it can't be done. BUT what we are saying is that if you divide your two tracks into 3 section ( say ) and set up 2x2x2 = 8 stories, you can cover all the possible random playback combinations, ie:

Track A - AAA
Track B - BBB

Stories:

1 - AAA
2 - BAA
3 - ABA
4 - AAB
5 - BAB
6 - BBA
7 - ABB
8 - BBB

So you can achieve the effect of randomly switching between tracks by randomly choosing a story before it plays. If you want 4 sections you need 2x2x2x2 = 16 stories, if you want 5 sections you need 32, and so on. I'm assuming that if you had enough sections and put the "joins" in uneven places, you could make it LOOK random even though there is a hidden structure. Even only 6 sections means you would have 64 different versions. Would this work for you ?

If so, there's a complication because the maximum number of PGCs you can interleave is 9, so if you are interested in this approach I'll explain how to get around that.

Ian

PS. I have experimented with forced-activation buttons-on-video testing for variables and switching angles ( not audio ) seamlessly. This might be another way to do what you want ?

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Posted Oct 27,2004 5:13 PM Uli Plank

Hi Ian,

I'm very curious about your P.S. (conditional switching of angles), can we get into some exchange about this?

Best regards,

Uli

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Posted Oct 27,2004 6:41 PM jean.marie

BONJOUR IAN

It's exactly what I want to do, my trouble is how I do it ? How I give the instruction to switch ? And does it audio seamlessly ?

My BIG QUESTION IS HOW I TELL THE DVD PLAYER TO SWITCH ANGLE ?
for exemple let's take a movie witch we cut in 4 pieces (ABCD) I know in DVDSP3 how to make a new movie ACDB or BCDA or what you want but I DON'T know how switch the angle.I can't find the solution in DVDSP3 , should I do that in TFDVDEDIT ?

thanx

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Posted Oct 28,2004 5:34 AM ianshepherd

OK, it's been a while ( before NAB ! ) since I did this, but here's the short version from memory - let me know what isn't clear. ( it uses similar ideas to the ones in my old article.

In DVDSP 3, set up two markers. The second marker should be at the point where you want the angles to change, because forced-activation button commands are executed at the end of the cell. Set the first marker should to be a button-highlight marker, and place an invisible button in the track. We'll add commands to it in TFDVDEdit later.

Also in DVDSP 3, set up a variable - GPRM 7 ( r15 ) say, which will control the angle switching.

Build the project, open in 'Edit and add the following command to the the invisible button in the first nav-pack of the cell:

Set Stream Angle r15

This simply switches the angle to the value we put into GPRM 7.

Now the critical part - assuming there is only one button at this point, you will already see "Force Button Select Number" is set to 1 ( In the Button Highlight properties of the nav-pack ). We also need to change the "Force Action Button Number" to 1 as well. Notice "Force Action" is different from "Auto-Activation", which is why there are various messages in public forums contradicting each other about whether this technique will work. This setting forces the button to be activated when playback hits it - at the end of the cell, remember.

Copy and paste these properties to all the other nav-packs in the cell.

That's it !

I tested this idea in several players, including WinDVD, PowerDVD and the Apple DVD Player, and it worked fine. It even works with mixed-angles. I never went any further with it though, because I wanted seamless audio switching as well, and although the Set Stream command allows both streams to be changed simultaneously, audio switching is non-seamless, even if both streams are the same.

So, be aware it's not a well-tested idea, and so there may well be problems with certain players, especially software ones. Other limitations are that of course angle changes have a certain delay after the command is activated, so you can't control the change very precisely - although clever asset design will stop this being a problem.

GPRM 7 of course allows you to control which angle is selected. The button commands can be conditional, eg.

if r14 >= r13 then Set Stream Angle r15

- but I haven't tested this to see if it's still seamless.

NOW, so much for switching angles mid-stream - if you want a random effect as well, you will need to be a little more clever. The simplest way would be to have a different random variable for each time you want to switch angles, but this will quickly use up GPRMs.

A more efficient way would be to duplicate the PGCs in 'Edit, and have the button switch to different angles in different PGCs. Then the random GPRM would determine which PGC was played instead of which angle. So, for example, for two angle changes, in DVDSP 3 assign a random number between 1 and 4 to GPRM 7:

ran GPRM 7, 4

- and after building, duplicate your multi-angle PGC in 'Edit, setting up the buttons so that:

PGC 1

Cell 1: Set Stream Angle 1
Cell 2: Set Stream Angle 1

PGC 2

Cell 1: Set Stream Angle 1
Cell 2: Set Stream Angle 2

PGC 3

Cell 1: Set Stream Angle 2
Cell 2: Set Stream Angle 1

PGC 4

Cell 1: Set Stream Angle 2
Cell 2: Set Stream Angle 2

( Of course if you have chapters in the VTS ( track ), there will be more than 2 cells per PGC, so "Cell 1" means "the first angle-switching cell", "Cell 2" means " the second cell containing the angle-switching button" etc. )

Finally insert the following to the beginning of the pre-commands in PGC 1:

if r15 == 1 then GoTo Line 5
if r15 == 2 then Link PGC 2
if r15 == 3 then Link PGC 3
if r15 == 4 then Link PGC 4

I haven't tested it, but I think that should work ! As in my previous post, if you have 3 points where you want to switch angles you will need 2x2x2 = 8 PGCs, 16 PGCs for 4 angle-changes etc - and so you will need to modify the commands accordingly.

I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to achieve the same result, but I'll leave that up to you guys !

Hope that's useful / interesting,

Cheers

Ian

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Posted Oct 28,2004 7:22 AM jean.marie

so many thanx I will test that today (or tomorrow depending my free time)

thanx again, it's still chinese to me but I begin to understand .

this only thing I don't understand is if there will have a mute effect (on the sound) when it wille change angle or not ?

so many thanx for you help

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Posted Oct 28,2004 9:31 AM ianshepherd

Hi Arthur,

The audio only mutes if you change audio streams. If you just change video angle, there will be no mute - just as if you had used the Angle key on your DVD player's remote control.

Ian

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Posted Oct 28,2004 9:34 AM jean.marie

oky great

thanx.

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Posted Nov 15,2004 12:01 PM jean.marie

hello

So I tried to simply change the angle but it still doesn't work ?

what did I have done wrong?

In fact I don't understand where I set up the GPRM7 like you said : "Also in DVDSP 3, set up a variable - GPRM 7 ( r15 ) say, which will control the angle switching."

and what and how I should set up it ?? in DVDSP3, what do you mean by set up GPRM7?
should I put r15 like this un DVDSP3 " GRPM7 : r15 " ?

and what you call nav pack 1 is that this on ? : "video title sets (vts)/VTS1 (1PGC)/PGC 1 TT 1 (2programs)/PG 1 PTT 1 (1 cell)/ Cell Angle Blk 1 (2 angles) / Angle Unit 1/ Nav Pack 1 , Nav Pack 2 etc ...

could you light me ??

thanx

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Posted Nov 15,2004 6:06 PM jean.marie

nobody to help me ?

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Posted Nov 15,2004 7:28 PM Trai

Hi Jean Marie,

I'll try to get something together for you later tonight (it will be hard; Philadelphia's playing Dallas tonight).

In the meanwhile, would you please provide exactly the whole structure of your project? Are you using stories, how many chapters; mixed angles or is the whold track two angles? And any thing else you think I might not want to know, even include that.

Thanks for your patience,

Trai

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Posted Nov 15,2004 7:36 PM jean.marie

thanx a lot

I'm preparing a .sit that I will send in a personnal FTP.

thanx a lot,,,cause for the moment I 'm totaly lost in the cammand to switch angle seamlessly.

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Posted Nov 15,2004 9:39 PM jean.marie

so I put on our ftp a file : http://www.cquatre.com/arthur/
but it's just a DVDSP3 file (in which .m2v are missing you have to link with some of yours because it was too heavy)

so I put ,in the .zip, a .pdf that expose my ideas more clearly , I hope

I really need your help because it's 3:30 AM here and I have to give something for the next hour (before PM)

so I keep turn around with your advices (up of the topics) but I can't do some thing correct , that's why I put a almost virgin DVDSP3 fils in the .zip , to not give you a corrupted file.

an exemple will be really great if you could.

so many thanx.

ps: phili again dallas , you talk about NBA ?
ps: my name is Arthur, jean marie is my boss (whom doesn't use soft, he just pay them;-)

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Posted Nov 16,2004 2:21 AM Trai

Hi Arthur,

Thanks for uploading your project.

Unfortunately, for the method described in the manual on page 38, and what Ian elaborated in his reply, won't work for what you want to do; switching angles seamlessly.

The main reason is because of the random functionality. The forced activated button, created in a separate 1 second or so duration cell right at the end of each segment, can only launch (or not launch) one conditional command. So that means you would have to choose to switch to the first or second angle, or not, at each cell, where you wanted to "decide" which angle to play (conditional button commands switching audio, subtitles, or angles can be seamless in players that support button forced, auto-activations).

A Seamless Branching treatment for your project can be daunting to set up because of the random functionality, in this case, but it might work. I still don't know your projects bit budget, so you may not have room to duplicate assets several times.

Seamless branching would help reduce the amount of assets you would have to duplicate to make enough alternate playback versions before-hand, to make it seem like a random function was behaving, as Ian mentioned.

On your question as to how to get the angles to switch, and what you may have been doing wrong, make sure you've got a normal sub picture button highlight assigned to your buttons in the Track (even if transparent). Also, are you up to speed yet on how to set copy and paste button commands into all the other Nav packs? Also, I recommend that you create a second or so long cell (are you familiar with how to create just a cell in DVD SP, that's not a marker?) right before the end of all your segments to place the button and highlight, which will hold the button command (placed in TFDVDEdit) . The forced activated button will launch the moment the cell boundary containing the invisible forced activated button is played, at the end of all your segments.

As to how to implement your project, Ian laid out the only viable approach in his big earlier reply, using the same program layout, but in different PGCs, having the particular PGC set up the values in the GPRMs to help the conditional Set Stream commands determine what angles are playing.

It's late now (the Eagles won 49 to 21, btw; American Football), please ask for clarification on Ian's reply, I'll rejoin the thread in the AM, if you have questions and I'm still needed.

Take care,

Trai

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Posted Nov 16,2004 11:33 AM jean.marie

oky

but if my random choose is made before the playing, I mean that I have multiple scenary and I made a random to choose them; It should play every time a ramdom scenary , so it won't be a real random switch angle but it's look like ?

my BIG question for the moment is where should I set up the GPRM 7 tp switch angle , like you told me ??

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Posted Nov 16,2004 2:43 PM Trai

Hi Arthur,

I'm getting some multi-angle assets ready to test out today, as I've never tried this with a random function (you raise some interesting questions with this project).

For now, in answer to your immediate question, the value in GPRM 7 (which is multiplexed by DVD SP as GPRM 15; r15, for some weird reason) that is set in DVD SP, of which Ian speaks; is so you can check that value, against yet another GPRM (or even the current Angle player SPRM setting), which you'll need to test as part of your forced button selection conditional command.

Since your project is so simple (yeah, right! :-), with just a menu and one multi-angle track; if you reauthor completely in TFDVDEdit, you'll have good options of where to place this GPRM value; and indeed, have more choices of how to optimally set things up (of which I hope to figure out with a test project).

It will take a bit, but I'll get back to you.

Trai

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Posted Nov 16,2004 3:00 PM jean.marie

oky , thanx TRAI

but I just wanna know where I set up the GPRM7 (r15) in DVDSP3 in order to made a simple switch angle , and after I will make it randomly but for the moment I don't know where do I set up this variable.

so could you explain me , because I'm lost !!

thanx

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Posted Nov 16,2004 4:06 PM Trai

Hi Arthur,

If you want to test the simple angle switch, for now, why don't you go ahead and just use the Set Stream command in TFDVDEdit; say:

Set Stream Angle 2

This will switch the stream from Angle 1 to Angle 2.

Let's worry about where to set a GPRM value in r15 a little later. I didn't get your menu in your project file, that would help to see if we could use one of the menu button commands, or a command in the tail (post command area) of the menu PGC, to set a value we can check in the button command (or in a Title PGC precommand area).

Talk later on,

Trai

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Posted Nov 16,2004 9:06 PM jean.marie

oky thanx

for the menu , I don't create one because I don't know what menu should I do, Imean the result is the most importante.

I ll create the menu after

I whant to know about the GPRM7 (r15) because I wanna test with the subtitle button solution

thanx

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Posted Nov 17,2004 3:47 AM Trai

Hi Arthur,

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you, I've been taken up with mastering issues today (gettin real close!).

What I've been able to determine with your project, again, is that there's no way to have a true random functionality with the multiple desired (different and changing) angle playback paths you desire, using the method of forced button activation. Button commands can only launch one command. So it doesn't matter what GPRM we're checking to make a conditional switch, or not; the command at the end of each of your segments will always be the same command, checking the same condition.

I wanted to try and set up a project using Ian's brilliant method (creating multiple PGCs), but then remembered that button commands must be the same for all the PGCs (since button commands reside in the Nav Packs in the VOB that the PGC controls). For sure, Ian laid out cell commands in his method, but they wouldn't be seamless; which I believe that was what you wanted?

Now I'm looking at the seamless branching, as John Calderbank recommended, to see if we can pull off your project (which will still require setting up a pseudo randomness, with multiple PGCs, using the DVD SP Story feature to create those PGCs).

If you'd like to try it, this is what you'll have to do:

1) Re prepare your assets for seamless branching;

In your project's case, you'll need to treat your multi-angle material as separate entities/segments, divided by markers that you'll line up in the Track in DVD SP as one stream. Appropriate audio must underlay the appropriate video sections; match framing video and audio that you want to play through seamlessly after TFDVDEdit interleaves the material, even if miles apart on the Track, must be accounted for.

It would be best to set this up on the NLE timeline, before encoding to Mpeg 2. The best way to line up your elements on the NLE timeline, and thus how they'll line up in the Track once in DVD SP, is to put your